The Indivisible Stochastic Picture of Quantum Mechanics

Jacob Barandes has a formulation of quantum mechanics which I’ve been thinking about. He says we should forget about wavefunctions and Hilbert spaces, and that a neglected corner of ordinary probability theory is fully equivalent to the full quantum picture. Watch his lecture on youtube if you want to listen to him explain it (he’s a good speaker, I recommend it), or read his paper. I’ll go over the basic ideas, and work through my thoughts on the theory. Thumbnail of youtube interview with Barandes

I think it’s fair to say that at a first pass, quantum mechanics appears to most students as a rather artificial theory: While the mathematics involved is on its own not difficult, it is abstract, the physical interpretation of it is murky, and it is a hard pill to swallow that gadgets like complex Hilbert spaces and their tensor products which seem like very human constructions, are really necessary to describe nature. In fact, even the very first students of quantum mechanics struggled with this problem, with von Neumann apparently proclaiming “I don’t believe in Hilbert spaces anymore”. We might ask then whether we can start with some natural set of assumptions that don’t include Hilbert spaces or any quantum weirdness and show that they lead to a theory that is nevertheless equivalent to quantum mechanics.
Barandes attempts this, but he is not the first to do so. In fact, this is precisely the mission statement of the so-called Quantum Reconstruction program. This program has produced a handful of related ways to construct quantum mechanics from natural principles. See the introduction of this paper for an overview. Very roughly speaking, in these frameworks quantum mechanics distinguishes itself from a classical deterministic theory in that even maximal knowledge of a system does not allow perfect prediction of all possible measurements; And further distinguishes itself from an ordinary stochastic theory only by the requirement that information is preserved/all processes are continuously reversible in isolated systems. For example: In the paper I just linked, which adopts an information-theoretic viewpoint, both of these two statements are contained in what the authors call the ‘purification principle’, without which their axioms would be compatible with a classical theory.

Stochastic Systems

Barandes’ theory is different in that it doesn’t, in its basic formulation, make recourse to any generalization or modification of probability theory. Quantum systems are described as ‘boring’ stochastic systems in his framework, albeit of a somewhat unusual sort. Barandes emphasizes the boringness as a feature.
Here’s how: Given a finite set $S$ (the state space), a ‘generalized stochastic system’ consists simply of a time-dependent matrix $\Gamma(t)$ of size $|S|\times|S|$ whose entry $\Gamma_{ij}(t)$ tells us the probability of finding the system in state $j$ at time $t$ when initialized in state $i$ at time $0$. The entries, being probabilities, are between 0 and 1 and $\Gamma$ is normalized in the way you’d expect: the columns sum to 1 (we say that $\Gamma(t)$ a stochastic matrix) and $\Gamma(0)=\mathbb 1$.
Given a generalized stochastic system (GSS), if we additionally specify an initial probability distribution $\mathbf{p}(0)$ on $S$, to be read as ‘the system is in state $j$ with probability $p_{j}(0)$’, then we get an evolving probability vector $\mathbf{p}(t):=\Gamma(t)\mathbf{p}(0)$.
Crucially, $\Gamma(t)$ is not required to factorize as $\Gamma_{t’}(t-t’)\Gamma(t’)$ for smaller times $t’<t$ and some stochastic matrix $\Gamma_{t’}(t-t’)$. This property would be called Markovianity or divisibility or memorylessness: It would mean that we could think of the time-evolution of the state at any time as only depending on the present state and not its history (but see the warning in the next paragraph). We do not assume this, but we leave open the possibility that such a factorisation might happen to be true for special times $t’$ and all $t\geq t’$, in which case we call $t’$ a division event. Usually $\Gamma(t)$ will have full rank, in which case division events can be identified by the property that $\Gamma(t)\Gamma^{-1}(t’)$ is a stochastic matrix for all $t\geq t’.$

Let me give one warning that is surely quite obvious to anyone knowledgeable about probability theory (which set doesn’t include myself, so this point confused me for a bit): The evolving state $\mathbf{p}(t)$ falls severely short of uniquely defining what’s usually meant by a stochastic process in probability theory! What’s missing is all knowledge about contingent probabilities. Basically, a genuine stochastic process would tell us how likely any given trajectory through state-space is but here we only know the pointwise probability distributions at all times. A stochastic process has its own definition of Markovianity, directly requiring that evolution only depends on present state, not past trajectory. And if $\Gamma(t)$ does happen to satisfy the divisiblity criterion above at all times, then there is indeed a unique Markovian stochastic process for any initial $\mathbf{p}(0)$ that matches all $\mathbf{p}(t)$ in its probability distributions, but there are also many non-Markovian stochastic processes that do the same! To make this concrete, consider the transition matrix $$ \Gamma(t)=\begin{pmatrix} e^{-\lambda t} & 0\\ 1-e^{-\lambda t} & 1 \end{pmatrix}.
$$This matrix clearly satisifies the divisibility condition and we can think of it as belonging to a Markovian decay process between two states, $B$ and $A$, with a fixed half-life. Then the trajectories of this process either start in state $B$ and stay there; or they start in state $A$, decay to $B$ at some point, then stay there. But we can also imagine a different stochastic process with the same transition matrix, whose trajectories that start in $B$ also stay in $B$, but if starting in $A$ are allowed to randomly switch any number of times, with transition probabilites tuned in just such a way that the overall probability vector always precisely conforms to $\Gamma(t)\mathbf{p}(0)$. In the most extreme case, we can imagine the state of the system, if starting out in $A$, to be given at any time $t$ by a completely independent random variable with distribution $(e^{-\lambda t},1-e^{-\lambda t})$! This is clearly non-Markovian, as the system remembers its initial state in order to know whether it’s allowed to jump from $B$ to $A$.
The reason I’m saying all this is because Barandes says we should think of a GSS as somehow like a stochastic process, in that when we use it to describe actual physical systems we should think of the system as always being in one definite state, i.e. describing a trajectory through state-space. And he seems to be saying that at division events we really should throw away past information, although this is not inevitable merely from the mathematics of the $\Gamma$-matrices, as we’ve just seen.
What happens away from division events, i.e. what sort of trajectories are we imagining? I have no clue. Barandes either doesn’t say, or I didn’t catch it. Maybe we just stay agnostic about it. We’ll come back to this later once we’ve gained an understanding of how this all relates to quantum mechanics. In some sense, what trajectory the system ‘really’ takes and even whether we should actually think of a real state at all, are questions that straddle the line between the formulation of the model and its interpretation. For now we’ll focus on what the $\Gamma$-matrices themselves can tell us.

Describing Quantum Systems

So we want to describe quantum systems in this language. By ‘quantum system’ I mean not just a unitarily evolving state of an isolated system, but more generally any evolving mixed state of a possibly open system. We assume given a Hilbert space with an orthonormal basis $S$ and a notion of time evolution for density matrices $\rho(t)\to \rho(t’)$ underlying some standard technical restrictions (it’s a completely positive trace-preserving linear operator; See the paper if you want all the details). We will make a GSS whose states are the same set $S$ which serves as our basis. We are obliged to obey one restriction: We must start out at time $t=0$ with a diagonal density matrix (no superposition), which we can assume to have real entries. The entries then are precisely the probabilities $p_{j}(0)$. Here’s how to get the transition matrix $\Gamma(t)$: The entry $\Gamma_{ij}(t)$ is simply the probability of measuring state $j$ at time $t$ after starting out in state $i$ at time $0$ (if we were to measure at that time). So take the diagonal density matrix $P_{j}$ which has only one nonzero entry at place $j$, evolve it to time $t$ to get some new density matrix $\rho$, then take the trace $\mathrm{tr}( P_{i}\rho)$ to get $\Gamma_{ij}(t)$.

An isolated quantum system evolves unitarily. We define a unistochastic system to be a GSS whose transition matrices are unistochastic, which for a matrix means it can be obtained from a unitary complex matrix by taking absolute-value squared entrywise. (This is how Barandes defines a unistochastic system. In application though, he supposes a differentiably evolving unitary matrix $U(t)$ which gives $\Gamma(t)$ by taking entrywise norms. This is a priori stronger than just asking for $\Gamma(t)$ to be unistochastic at each $t$ separately, and should maybe be taken as the definition. I don’t know whether the two are equivalent, i.e. whether every differentiable family of unistochastic matrices can be lifted). Isolated quantum systems are described by unistochastic systems, and any unistochastic system has a Hilbert space description. It is then possible to interpret all the distinctive features of quantum mechanics: interference, entanglement, non-commuting measurements, uncertainty and so on as features of the probability theory of unistochastic systems.

Now this might seem like a bit of a let-down at first glance: Isn’t it the case that all the quantum weirdness that we wanted to explain is now just hidden behind the equally arcane condition of unistochasticity? Certainly this doesn’t seem like a condition one would be able to come up with without already knowing about the Hilbert space formulation of QM. To convince us of the naturality of unistochasticity, Barandes proves the Stochastic-Quantum Correspondence: Every GSS can be embedded into a unistochastic system. That is, any GSS with state space $S$ can be seen as a subsystem of some larger unitastochastic system with state space $E\times S$, and the dynamics of $S$ follow from those of $E\times S$ by marginalizing over the additional states (which is the same thing as ‘tracing over the environment’ in physics parlance). The proposed picture is then: Physical systems are a priori described by some GSS (which should not surprise us, since it’s a very general kind of description), and can therefore equivalently be described unistochastically as a mathematical convenience.
I’m not sure I completely buy this argument. Let’s return to the example from earlier of a Markovian system describing decay with a fixed half-life, i.e. the transition matrix $$ \Gamma(t)=\begin{pmatrix} e^{-\lambda t} & 0\\ 1-e^{-\lambda t} & 1 \end{pmatrix}. $$ This is a perfectly fine GSS, and we could imagine a world containing such a decay process at a fundamental level. How does the unistochastic/quantum description for this look like? One thing you might notice immediately is that it cannot have a constant Hamiltonian, because otherwise the system would have to return to its initial state after some time due to Poincare recurrence. So we need to add some extra states and have a Hamiltonian varying in such a way as to conspire to hide them from us at all times. One possibility is a matrix of the form: $$U(t)=\begin{pmatrix} e^{-\lambda t/2} & \sqrt {1-e^{-\lambda t}} & 0 & 0\\ -\sqrt {1-e^{-\lambda t}} & e^{-\lambda t/2} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix},$$which is a unitary (even orthogonal) matrix. The original states $A$ & $B$ have split up into $A_{1}$, $A_{2}$, $B_{1}$, $B_{2}$. Of these, $A_{2}$ and $B_{2}$ are inert and don’t change their state, while $A_{1}$ and $B_{1}$ rotate into each other. If we embed the initial conditions via $A\to A_{1}$ and $B\to B_{2},$ we recover the original system by marginalizing over the indices. But this is a terrible way to describe the system! While this is a family of unitary matrices, it’s not generated by a Hamiltonian, even a time-varying one, because the derivative at $t=0$ explodes (I think that’s a negative answer to my previous question about lifting families). And we only get the decay behavior we started with if we take these particular initial conditions with $A_{2}$ and $B_{1}$ vanishing, and lock the time-evolution of the Hamiltonian (away from $t=0$, where it’s not defined) to this one predetermined path. A very reasonable GSS with a constant Markovian generator has turned into a rather unreasonable beast in the unitary description. Needless to say, this is not the sort of thing we see in nature! We generally see constant Hamilitonians and unitary evolution on a state space that is fully realizable, which I feel still requires explanation.

Another idea to justify unistochastic systems might be to take a page from the quantum reconstructions program which exposes quantum mechanics as the result of reconciling the two seemingly contradictory properties of stochasticity and information preservation. Unfortunately, the definition of a GSS seems to be too general to permit a characterisation of unistochastic systems as the ‘information-preserving’ GSSes in any reasonable sense. For instance, no matter how far from unistochastic $\Gamma(t)$ is, it can always retrace its path to return to the identity at $2t$, which surely would be sufficient for any reasonable definition of information preservation. A GSS is just a family of stochastic matrices, there are no constraints.

Once we’ve accepted the idea of unistochastic systems, we can analyze measurement in just the same way one does in ordinary QM. That is, by considering a composite unistochastic system of ‘environment’ and ‘subject system’, and tracing out the environment to get a non-unistochastic description of the subject system. For an idealized measurement in basis $S$, we let the interaction between the two subsystems be such that it perfectly correlates their states at some intermediate time, and let the systems evolve independently thereafter. Barandes shows that this results in a division event in the subject system, which is how wavefunction collapse manifests itself here.
Barandes calls operators diagonal in $S$ ‘be-ables’, and considers them genuine properties of the system’s state, while non-diagonal operators are ‘emerge-ables’ and signify emergent patterns in the system’s dynamics. One can do a similar calculation of their measurement processes. These do not immediately entail a division event, but if one further separates from the environment system a ‘measuring system’, then they induce a division event in that measuring system.

Interpretation

The biggest selling point of this formulation is supposed to be the ease of interpretation. The system is always in a definite state, which changes stochastically and it’s only the indivisibility of the process which gives rise to quantum phenomena. Let’s process what this implies. First of all, we should note that the entire mathematics of the theory is in the $\Gamma$ matrices. Given some input state, the output of a GSS is an evolving probability vector, nothing more. The ‘actual state’ is a pointer on top of that, pointing at one specific element of the state space at all times but otherwise affecting nothing at all. We also have no information on how this pointer changes over time, except that we know the a priori probability with which to expect it in a given state.
Even on a purely philosophical level, I have a hard time convincing myself that this is a meaningful concept. I don’t know how to assign a truth value to the statement that this pointer exists. A ball in a Pachinko machine can be modeled by a stochastic process (non-Markovian if the machine contains any gadgets that interact with, and are affected by, the ball’s movement), and here we can meaningfully say that it has a definite state if we either sample a trajectory (which is a well-defined thing with genuine stochastic processes) or actually throw a ball into the real-world machine. Neither of these things work in the case of modeling the real world by a GSS. The first option doesn’t apply and in the second the state comes from the fact that the machine is real separately from the abstraction of the stochastic process. To apply it in our case, we would need to posit a mechanism by which quantum mechanics itself arises from some other thing which is independently real. Even if such a thing existed (whatever that means), we in principle couldn’t detect it and have no reason to assume it prefers this particular formulation.

Supposing the ‘this is the real state’ pointer does exist in some sense, how might it change over time? Take a system consisting just of a single qubit with a nondiagonal Hamiltonian such that the state evolves (in conventional formulation) like $|0\rangle \to \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(|0\rangle +|1\rangle)\to|1\rangle$. At the intermediate time (call it $t_{i}$), we are in the midst of an indivisible stochastic process and the probability vector is ${0.5}$ in both entries. Nevertheless, in the stochastic interpretation we suppose that the system actually is in one of the two states. Say it’s in state $0$. Does this increase the likelihood that at time $t_{i}+\epsilon$ we will also be in state $0$? We don’t know at all. Perhaps the simplest thing is to assume that it doesn’t and that the pointer constantly switches between the two at a high frequency such that the overall time spent in each state is given by the output probability vector. This would effectively reproduce the many-worlds interpretation, though perhaps with more of a justification for the Born rule (though that can be argued about).
We might look to division events for an opportunity to lock in a genuine choice in the probability tree (as is suggested by the name). This doesn’t hold up except as an approximation, though: As far as we can tell, any division event in the real world ultimately comes from being a subsystem of a larger unitary system with a constant Hamiltonian and meaningful space of states. In this larger system, no division event is visible and we should assume that the state can jump between different branches. And of course, the idealized conditions leading to a division event aren’t present in the real world in the first place: All apparent division events are really only approximate and will break down over long enough timescales. This makes it inevitable that for instance any computer simulation of the world must simulate all branches, no matter how decohered, or be inaccurate after a sufficiently long time (potentially REALLY long like Poincare recurrence time long). Of course this is a statement that’s not specific to this formulation of QM, but I think it kind of highlights why I find the idea of the reality pointer sitting on top of it all so strange.

Another point of friction is the unfounded breaking of symmetries intrinsic to this framework. We declare that $S$ is somehow ontologically more significant than other orthonormal bases of the Hilbert space, despite there being in many cases a perfect symmetry between many or all possible choices. Describing the spin state of particles, are we really to assume there is an unambigiously preferred axis along which to measure it, defined at every point in space? And of course there’s time translation symmetry: What we usually mean by this corresponds to the statement that the unitary generator is constant in time, but this is a far less obvious statement in the stochastic view. Why a priori should “physics is the same at every point in time” correspond to a constant unistochastic generator, if we take the more general concept of a GSS to be fundamental? I outlined above why I don’t find the stochastic-quantum theorem alone a convincing answer here.

Anyway, my conclusion is that in the end these questions concerning interpretation and metaphysics are still just as muddy as ever. It’s of course very possible that I’ve just not grokked the idea and others will have a better time with it!
On the other hand, the precise part of the theory, the presentation of QM in a very unfamiliar form, is enlightening and made me carefully think through some aspects of both ordinary probability theory and quantum mechanics that I was previously unfamiliar with. The mathematical details of the correspondence I’ve mostly omitted here, but they are interesting to go through. And if you like this sort of thing, also check out the quantum reconstructions papers that I’ve mentioned a few times now, especially the one I linked in the beginning and Quantum Theory From Five Reasonable Axioms, which seems to have kicked off the program.

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28 comments, sorted by newest first
Ben TG
1mo ago
Thanks for this.
I'm listening to Barandes on TOE for the 2nd time cause it seems like he might really be on to something.
Now I'm reading your rebuttal and am even more excited that he could be completely wrong!
I only have like 15% comprehension here, but it's fascinating nonetheless.
🕵️‍♂️
Boaz Nash
1mo ago
I don't think @coexact.bsky.social says that Barandes is completely wrong. I think he points out that the formalism may be less unique or interesting than Barandes presents it as since there is a broader literature on similar approaches. Still, I'm excited on what it says about measurement.
Boaz Nash
1mo ago
Also, I'll have a look on the recommended paper:
arxiv.org/abs/1011.6451
but I'm unsure what to make of information as being in the basic ontology. It just begs the question as what that information is about. I like Barandes' minimalistic formulation in terms of a stochastic process.
co-exact guy
1mo ago
I guess the point here is less to provide an ontology but rather to show that on a mathematical level quantum theory is the natural and even inevitable result of requiring a system to be both probabilistic and information-preserving in some (precise) sense. Because information preservation is ..
co-exact guy
1mo ago
a fundamental tenet in physics as we know from thermodynamics, QM is the only possible way to incorporate a fundamental randomness. Idk, to me this makes the whole thing seem a lot less artificial, but it doesn't provide an actual interpretation as Barandes does!
Ben TG
1mo ago
Can Barandes' idea end where he leaves it, as (I guess) a distinct way to construct qm, or does it need to go further to explain fields, particles, other stuff before it is viable or useful?
Does it lead merely to a new/different interpretation, or does it have potential to become something more?
🙏
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co-exact guy
1mo ago
Yeah I certainly didn't set out to write a rebuttal, and I think it can be useful to think of quantum systems this way! I do have some genuine disagreement in the end though. Disagreement about interpretation is common of course, but I think my example of a simple GSS with no Hamiltonian does ..
co-exact guy
1mo ago
challenge the idea that generic GSSes are primary, and the unitary description emergent from that.
Boaz Nash
1mo ago
Thanks, I'm still working on absorbing your argument. One thing I just understood is that since Gamma matrices are propagators for probability distributions, they could be propagators for a Fokker-Planck equation.
Of course, one then wonders about the status of the underlying stochastic process.
Boaz Nash
1mo ago
My physics background is mostly in charged particle beam dynamics, so I try to see what this theory says in that context. Quantum mechanics actually isn't normally relevant directly in spatial degrees of freedom. Quantized photon emission does lead to diffusion however, and there's also QM in spin.
Boaz Nash
1mo ago
By the way, very cool how your blog integrates with bluesky comments!
co-exact guy
1mo ago
credit there goes to @flo-bit.dev, I just copied his template (with slight modifications) here: flo-bit.dev/blog-template/ !
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Boaz Nash
4w ago
Have you tried to share your analysis with Barandes? I'm curious about his response.

Your point about how the Markovian GSS can give rise to non-Markovian trajectories is really interesting. If we just say that those non-Markovian trajectories aren't allowed is this a problem for the formalism?
Boaz Nash
4w ago
Also, do you have a reference that talks about how this formalism of Gamma matrices relates to the underlying trajectories? (I'll have to check Barandes' paper and look at his references.)

I'm curious now about the quantum trajectories formalism.
co-exact guy
4w ago
I didn't, no..

Well the formalism stays agnostic about the real trajectories, so upon encountering a division event one is free to imagine a 'real' loss of history-dependence. My point when I mention this in the post is just to point out that in doing so one is assuming something extra.
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co-exact guy
1mo ago
Thank you for reading! =)